Suffolk Piking...29/09/07

Sunday morning was out this week but my wife was off on Saturday so after a week of crappy weather Mike and I decided to cross our fingers and take the yaks on the Broad after a few toothy critters. Arranging to meet at 6am on the broad seemed like a good idea – there to offload and unload, park the cars and go on the water. Like a fool I set my alarm for 5:30 and went to bed, waking up just before it went off, again. It seems that the lure of fishing has me raring to go unlike anything else – I am a crap riser.

So, down I went, kettle on, car around to the back gate and on with the yaks. Trident went on first as it is heaviest and widest – and it is heavy enough and big enough to give me some difficulty in the narrow confines of my back passage (fnaar fnaar!). Time, methinks, for a yellow and black Ferrari and a roof rack. They’re cheaper than the red ones I guess. Anyway, the Prowler 15 followed, both of them just fitting onto my rack. Rods (3½) followed along with tackle and the usual stuff and draining my coffee I headed off to meet Mike. I was already 15 minutes late, not that it mattered as it was still bloody dark! Two weeks ago it was light before 6!

I pitched up alongside a snoozing Mike and we got everything down to the waters edge then parked the cars. I was trying the Trident on the Broad again but with the Day Tripper paddle and Mike was in the P15 having his first experience with the fishfinder fitted. Somehow I had left half a rod at home so he elected to fish just one, saving me driving back to fetch it. It was starting to get light now, 6:30-6:45 something like that.



We went up the southern side, Mike leading and failed to catch in the usual places. We tried going up the dyke (more sblack personing) but again nothing – though some boaties were taking some small silvers. However, ti was my lucky day and I got a new first -I saw my first ever real live wild otter! Sadly it was too dark for the picture to come out so I’m afraid I can’t share that. No point fishing there then! Leaving Mike exploring I tried the western edge and bays of the broad and still blanked. Linking up with him again we headed down the broad chasing swans:



They never fly when you want them to. Mike carried on fishing the southern margins and I crossed the broad to try my other usual spots, but again, although I went right down the northern edge, I picked up nothing, not a sausage.

Coming around past the lock gates I realised I hadn’t got my lucky hat on. 2½ hours I’d been out, how I swore! On it went and I paddled up to the bend where I met up with Mike who had to be getting back. I changed from Gold shiner and Redhead Rapala Super Shad Raps to my faithful Blue Mackerel Pattern Shakespeare Big S and the same in perch patter and figured I’d try one more run up the southern hotspot and then follow him in.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ



right on cue, on my hotspot (this time!) a hell of a good hit and the reel let a load of braid out and I was in to what seemed a fine fish. I couldn’t yet see it but it felt like a good double, really pulling with a lot of power: It took line, I took line and



Up she came



Oddly, Pike go really placid when turned on their backs



alongside now, and ready to be lifted and unhooked



A good double it felt like. I doubt if it would have made 4lb! It fought like a river pike rather than one off the broad and I suspect it had come in recently or was very hungry after a good nights partying. A beautifully solid fish



out at arms length to get some scale and show the markings



and this last picture because I just like it so much. I find them to have a really expressive face and wonderfully deep eyes. I don’t know, there is something about pike – and it’s not their teeth – that I’ve always found to be really special.



Time to go. I paddled back to the launch point and unloaded, having a natter with Mike before fetching the car and getting held up for ten minutes while the yachts came through the lock which is just next to the road bridge. The broad is still hard work for the pike, I reckon it needs the cold weather to roll in a bit more, but they are there and they are feeding albeit being picky on the lures they’ll take.

Sweated the mud out that afternoon in the sauna on the holiday village – I think those of you coming in a fortnight are going to enjoy that part!

Trident 15 Sea Trials...16/09/07

This morning I woke up early and took the Trident down to the water for a proper test paddle. According to Magic Seaweed the conditions were 4ft swell at 4 second spacing with a 17mph south westerly. The swell was like that past the breakwater, but the surf was mostly a couple of feet with just a few decent sets. It was warm outside and nice and bright and so I trolleyed up, pulled on a wetsuit, grabbed my PFD and cameras and wandered down to the beach.

I had brought my usual paddle - a Carlisle Day Tripper cheapie - and the fancy one, to see what difference they made. Beginning with the cheapie I pulled the yak into the water and paddled slowly out straight through the surf. Again, it held a very straight track through this and I remained dry. I turned and went back in, again very straight and dry and repeated the exercise with the two-piece. I then repeated the exercise a further time but quicker and once again it handled it fine, riding straight over the waves and keeping me dry – basically unless you have one curl over just as you hit it you should stay pretty dry.

I then tried sitting side saddle, something I personally don’t tend to do, and it was fine. There is plenty of buoyancy so it doesn’t let a noticeable amount of water in but I didn’t feel too secure – the reason I don’t normally sit side saddle – as the kayak will weathercock and move with the swell and the high seating position does enhance the movement. It was fine though.





Reaching around to the back of the tankwell was also tried and this was easier than on the Prowler 15. I also went forward and opened and closed the bow hatch, again with no difficulty and the high, buoyant bow kept it clear of any ingress of water. Very stable kayak this.

I paddled over to an area where the surf is usually bigger and more uneven (getting broken up by the pier legs). Swell was 3-4ft but not really producing rideable surf, although the water was very broken. I pointed my nose at a groyne (down boy!) and sat there. And sat there. It stayed straight, just bobbing up and down with the swell. I may as well have been at anchor.


The tide was quite far out now and the water was shallow – between 1 and 3 feet and I sat side on to the surf for a good while, staying pretty dry (it was small surf by this point, maximum 2 feet) and not rolling over or being pushed around in direction. The following photograph was something I wouldn’t try in the P15 but which was fine with the Trident. I was in 12-18 inches of water, side on to the surf and paddled through the legs of the pier. The water is very messy here and runs fast; there are also banks around the pier so it does tend to be unpredictable. Spacing between the legs is I would say about 12 feet – not sure, but thereabouts. I went through easily and without being pushed much off course at all.



I paddled back to where I had launched and played some more in the surf. Although not designed as a surf boat this naughty little minx just wants to play! Well, play we did for a good half an hour. I couldn’t ride any of the waves today but I paddled into shore forwards, out forwards, in backwards, out backwards, in laying flat pointing forwards, out laying flat pointing forwards, in laying flat pointing backwards and out laying flat pointing backwards, the lying down ones repeated with my legs crossed as if having a kip. Now, there is no sane reason nor justification for most of those exercises, they were pointless and wouldn’t be used normally, but for the sake of doing them they were done. They were all VERY easy, the direction holding and mostly I kept dry, with the exception of some of the backwards ones on the way out, dependant on the breaking of the wave.

At this point Mike (Mb) arrived and so I handed over the Trident and went and fetched a Prowler 15, which I had fitted my Pacific Action sail to. Two reasons – Mike was enquiring about them the other day and the wind was strong. Coming back to the beach ten minutes later he looked dry (and resplendent in his new dry gear) and we went out again after I placed my C-Tug in the bow hatch of the Trident to try things with a bit more weight in. I also placed a paddle in the paddle keeper to make sailing easier and deployed it, trying to sail right off the beach. I couldn’t because of the position of the groyne so instead paddled out a little bit and then started to move quite quickly. Glancing back Mike was standing in the water, a wave having caught on the stowed paddle, knocking it up and hitting him. He stowed it again and launched with ease – but he couldn’t catch me, I was flying. I played around a bit doing a good rate of knots and then came back to where he was. I crossed the wind both times and having had a good successful sail (with virtually no effort on my part – in fact I was on the mobile for a few minutes of it to a mate who was too slow waking up to join us). I think I’ll put one on the Trident too; it certainly does make things a breeze (!)



Now Mike and I tested the weather-cocking. I felt the other day that it was slower to turn with the wind than the 15. I was wrong. We got parallel to each other but with a bit of space between us so as to not block the wind. We both pointed at a particular shore mark and called out as we turned to another. We then swapped boats and repeated the exercise as a control check to ensure it wasn’t dependant on the person in the saddle (shape, weight, wind resistance, lack of hair etc). That’s a story in itself and will follow in a moment. The verdict was unanimous – the Trident weathercocks quicker. Substantially quicker. I can’t say accurately but at a rough guesstimate I’d say between 20 and 40% faster than the Prowler 15.

Swapping boats. Apart from the weather cocking we both wanted to do some capsize drills and I especially needed to test the Trident for this. Plus Mike wanted to try the sail. So, instead of doing things on dry land, or getting in the water and then into the other one we decided to cross-deck. Good idea that. I got out of the Prowler and across to the Trident. So for a while we had Mike and I both on it, me forward and him near the seat. It felt stable enough. However, when Mike went across to the Prowler we became unstuck – literally. The Prowler tipped on its side when the weight was put on it and try as he might Mike couldn’t get it to behave. I was my usual helpful self and took a photograph but I don’t think Mike will forgive me for posting it! Still, he tested his dry gear – custom made locally by Liquid Logic – just not when he was expecting to. He soon clambered back in and I retrieved my camera from the Rod Pod and hung it around his neck. This was the first time I’ve seen Mike look worried on the kayaks; I told him to be careful because that was £2k of camera. I then handed him my compact – which is waterproof and asked him to snap me doing the capsize drills with the Trident:

I got in on the leeward side and flipped her over:



Reaching over, I turned her right way up:



Kicked myself on:



And clambered aboard:



Simple. Now for the windward side.

Flipped her over:



Reached over and began hauling myself up:



Clambered in:



And made myself comfy.



It was like getting into bed. The buoyancy and shape I assume is what makes it so easy to right – it sits high (but not so high you can’t reach over) and can be flipped back over very easily – far easier than the P15. There is also more space to put your feet etc and the buoyant wide gunwhales give you plenty of stability. There was no tippiness, no effort to pull here over, nothing, on either side of the boat. VERY safe in that respect.

Then just for the sake of it, I decided to stand up. The first attempt I was trying to work out how to stand and went in. I got out and tried again:



Having worked it out I got up easily enough:



And stayed standing upright for a good 30 seconds I’d guess, the sea wasn’t flat either. More stable than the 15 which I’d have gone over the side in seconds on. I then started to get myself back down and went for a swim. I’ll stay seated when fishing I think.

Mike deployed the sail and got the hang of it as soon as he started. He was off and I was paddling as hard as I could to keep up.



This is the point when I start evaluating the paddling of the Trident, the important part and so I have kept it until last so that I can pull it all together.

First I must say that it was a practically empty boat. I had, in the hull, a camera weighing a couple of pounds, a fleece, a carbon fibre paddle and one (later two) C-Tugs. This kayak is designed as a fishing platform and thus to be carrying weight, so this paddle review is only half of the story, to be continued when I load it up. So please do bear that in mind. Everyone so far who I have spoken to that has paddled it says it is two different beasts dependant on what’s in/on it. Comments are ONLY valid for an empty kayak, strong wind and saltwater. I can’t stress this enough.

To begin, I paddled out trying to keep a straight line. I couldn’t. It veered off to the right (the wind was pretty much right to left), repeating the experience of the other day. This also happened with Mike. I must say that I have never used a rudder on a kayak but if what I understand of them is correct then this kayak definitely needs one.

You can’t use a short paddle effectively as you are up high. It will do the job, but it is more tiring. You can do close-in and reaching-out strokes with ease (I don’t know the technical terms) and can rudder/turn with the blade to the rear with no bother too. But it is a hard boat to paddle in open sea compared to the P15. It seems to wallow quite a lot and takes a lot of effort and a lot of time to get anywhere. That’s across the wind. Against the wind and before the wind it moves a lot more efficiently, being easier to physically move and keeping a better course. Some hull slap was evident at times, but not a lot and it was dependent on wind and wave direction and also speed. It wasn’t enough to be of concern but I did take note of it for the review.

Paddling in the surf is largely described earlier in the text but it paddles far easier than in open sea in these conditions. Surf was, in fact, the only time in which I’d say the Trident paddled better than the Prowler 15 – but it was a hundred times better.

Turning. It seems to turn a lot easier and in a smaller circle than the 15 even though it’s longer by ten centimetres or so. I need to do a proper comparison on a river during a calm day but that is my feeling for now.

It’s slower than the Prowler 15 too, doesn’t cut through the water half as well. The 15 doesn’t have the buoyancy of the Trident of course and is a lot lower and wetter to ride.

So, all in all an interesting couple of hours. I tried as many things as I could, including some that I would never dream of doing in normal situations. In many ways the Trident fell short, and in just as many others it excelled.

First Session in the Trident 15

The wind eased a bit today, the rain had gone and the sky was bright. It seemed like the perfect opportunity to get out, test the Trident with a normal fishing load on normal water (for my fishing) and christen it with a fish. 10am or thereabouts saw me unloaded and by the waters edge rigged and ready to go.



The water was very high and the wind was pretty strong still, creating a fair chop on the Broad. Conditions, therefore, were not ideal – I have heard from a guy who pike-fishes there very regularly that when the water is high the pike aren’t interested - and this fits with my own experience here, wind also being a problem as usual hotspots seem to be empty. Still, the route takes them in anyway. So off I went up the margins and around the reedy bays



Nope, nothing was playing ball. I’d got a Shakespeare Big S blue mackerel on the one rod, perhaps my most productive piker, and a Rapala in a shiny blue mackerel pattern on the other. I decided to change them, and on went a Big S and a Rapala Super Shad Rap, both Redheads, and off I went again, this time downwind and further from the margins



Still nothing. I headed back up again, into the wind and about a third of the way up I heard the clutch on the Shimano TR-100G screaming – something was on the end (probably weed or a mussel bed). I stowed the paddle, grabbed the rod and was in



Whatever it was, it was big.

Big, and not wanting to come up to the surface in any great hurry.

It didn’t seem in a hurry to go anywhere quite frankly. But it wasn’t the bottom – there was movement…

Up it came

Further, until

A shape broke the surface and slid down again…

It appeared once again



It took a while to land, but was definitely a new personal best as far as chairs went.



So I continued on my second circuit, and on reaching a bay that is often fished by pikers in winter and which usually sees some action on float fished maggots I tied off to a tree and chucked in a telescopic for some small silvers – expecting nothing as all I had was some old casters from the previous lot of maggots and a few crumbs from the sausage rolls I’d got from the bakers on the way back from the school run. I was not disappointed in this as I caught the expected nothing.



I changed tactics and chucked some Storm Naturistic lures for a while, a small pike one and a large perch one, along with the redhead Super Shad Rap. Nope, nothing doing at all. I untied and continued the troll, using the Storm’s.

Nothing doing, I tied off near another hotspot where I had hooked large pike and close to where Simon had got one on the fly last year. I tried the Storms, the Super Shad Raps, still nothing. 2.5 hours I’d been on the broad by now and I hadn’t had anything bar a chair. Except for the bit of tree stump covered in mussels that I finally hauled in from here. I untied and went off, lures changed to a Rapala CD11, silver with a black back, and a Super Shad Rap in gold shiner -basically a goldfish made of plastic with two trebles. Simon had his biggie on one of these but I’d yet to tempt a fish with it.

I paddled off. Spoke with a guy on the bank who’d also had nothing when

zzzzz

I was in. I stowed the paddle and grabbed the rod.

Yes, I was in. It wasn’t doing a lot though. No head shaking, no powerful runs. Maybe it was off or I’d got some weed after all?

20 yards off and up came Jack



and down went Jack



and in came Jack



It made one dash for freedom, a solid run, when near the boat and then it came alongside: it wasn’t a bad size, 3-4lb and the reason for its relative inactivity became clear. It was a damaged fish. There was a chunk of flesh missing from the right gill-cover and the raker was visible, this was the first thing (I have seen this a few times but am none the wiser as to the cause) and the second was that the hook was at the top of the eye socket rather than in the mouth.



I lifted it out and unhooked the lure from the fish



A quick pic at arms length – just fitting with it zoomed back as wide as possible and me leaning back as far as I could



and one laid across my legs for a flank shot to show better its markings



and back it went, the first fish to be taken from my Trident. Presumably the first UK freshwater fish taken from a Trident. In fact, the British record Trident-caught pike and the largest fish ever landed in the UK in freshwater from a Trident. Which still doesn’t make it any bigger but a fisherman has to have a tale, right? The best bit was that I hadn’t blanked on the maiden fishing trip.

I carried on down to the bottom and began going up the side again, deciding that I would complete one last circuit or catch one more pike and then come in as I had to get home fairly soon. I passed the chair and was just into deeper water when I felt the rod going

And off went fish two.

A lively one this, only a pound and a half or so, and when it wasn’t dashing off it was leaping out of the water



It’d also fell to the gold shiner, caught on the belly hook fully in the mouth – having come presumably from below and grabbed it from the underside. Judging by its belly (bear in mind it’s shallow here, 6 feet or so, so it wasn’t gassed up) it had already eaten breakfast. I do like a fish with an appetite.



A couple more jumps and I managed to get my fingers in behind the gill covers and up it came.



Unhooked, snapped, and back it went.



I was happy with that. Either the fish had come back on the feed or orange was the colour of the day but it was about time to leave and so I turned around and paddled back to the launch point in what was now a proper fishing kayak.

Trident 15 First Paddle...12/09/07

The C-Tug stowed in the front hatch, camera in the rod pod and PFD on I dragged the trident into the water, getting in without about 8 inches beneath me. Swell was a couple of feet tops with a decent distance between each wave. Wind was fairly strong and blustery.



[u]I was also trying out a new paddle[/u], a Carlisle carbon fibre two-piece jobby that I was quite excited about. This was not a good idea though as I realised after launching that I couldn’t compare handling if using a different paddle to the one I normally use. Furthermore, I think the paddle is too short for me unless I need to alter my technique and the kayak was practically empty. Hence this is just a short and generalised review, not felt to be accurate, and while I am reporting things they will be revised the next time I go out – [u]please don’t take them as gospel[/u].

I paddled out, head into the surf. The first thing that struck me was that the nose was more buoyant than the Prowler 15. The second thing to strike me was a breaking wave that dumped water in my lap. So, the dry ride promised on all the forums was not 100% truthful…but then I always get a wave in my lap anyway. Directional stability was very good and the kayak kept its course with ease on the way out. It was a stable ride through the surfzone and I took it gently just to test these things. I could feel it was heavier and for all the talk of its speed I felt it was slower than the 15 on this occasion.

Getting out into deeper water and away from the groynes I started to feel the main difference I’d heard of; the seating position is higher than on my previous yaks. While it didn’t feel tippy or unstable, it did feel different and I seemed to feel more movement than normal – but this is possibly down to being used to a different boat as well as the higher seat. Response to the paddle was more like a Frenzy directionally with the nose veering slightly with each stroke. This may be due to the new paddle though as I also found that if I paddled equally and in an intended straight line I gradually turned in a circle. It was also hard work to get anywhere!

I decided to not bother with the paddling things any further for the time being and just to see how it responded when left to is own devices. It seemed to weathercock slower than the 15, which was good, and less water came in from the chop. It also drained out of the footwells and scupper holes very effectively (the lap full of water at launch was very quickly gone). It was also quite comfy to lie down in but so is the P15. Next I decided to try it in the surf.

As I paddled towards the surfzone I noticed it was very keen to pick up a wave on its own and ride it. It was doing it every time with no attempt by me to do so, even when I was not paddling but just slowly drifting in. After enjoying this I got to the point where I’d usually head in and caught a decent wave. Straight as a die, no need to correct with extra strokes and no tipping. The bow stayed out of the water and I glided in effortlessly, turned and went back out. It turned easier than the 15 too at this point. The next time I came in it was very slowly. Again, no turning from my course, no dipping of the bow under the water and no tipping. Very impressive. The last time I caught an even nicer wave by chance (the yak made me do it!) and I surfed it in easily, being turned a bit when I got into about a foot or so of water.

Certainly today, [u]in these conditions and with a paddle that wasn't right,[/u] it marked itself as a better surf yak than the Prowler 15, but an inferior paddle. I'll

Another Fish off Lowestoft...09/09/07

Does twice make it a regular thing? It’s certainly become easier with my wife to agree to, even if the poor girl is going hungry still. 9th September is my wedding anniversary, so at 6am on the dot Mike turned up ready to fish again – resplendent in his new dry trousers which regrettably I didn’t photograph. I’d got everything out of the shed and ready to go out into the alleyway to be loaded up and he took care of this while I took the bait out and divvied it up. A fillet of Mackerel and a box of baby squid from the freezer complimented some excellent ragworm and absolutely dire baby lugworm. I figured a choice of baits might see some action, especially as I had heard some reports of the codling beginning to show (and even seen one with my own eyes!).

C-Tugs on, we wandered down to the beach. Conditions were a bit more sea-like than last week and we were faced with a nice bit of surf to go through to begin with. It’s a very shallow sandy slope where I launch so the surf zone is quite drawn out with waves breaking over quite an area. Magic Seaweed had predicted a 3ft swell at 6 second spacing, a 16mph northerly wind and the current was running in the same direction as it was flooding up to high tide at 08:40. So nice and refreshing then…

Both times Mike had come out so far it had been a nice gentle launch but after getting things stowed and sorted out I decided to go first so as to be in position out of the surf to come and assist if need be. After taking pictures of him getting soaked of course. Out I went, getting plenty of water in my lap and onto the back of the fishfinder (whose batteries had died on me and hadn’t been checked). I got into position, turned and became the spectator:



Obviously watching Hawaii 5-0 in the past had left it’s mark and Mike made it with no trouble at all.



So, off we went to choose a spot. We’d planned to head for the sandbank off the Claremont Pier, about ¾ of a mile out. Quite a way past this longliner in fact:



A few hundred metres from where I reckoned it to be we stopped and anchored up, the swell being noticeably larger on the bank itself. We’d gone a few hundred metres further south than the pier as well and were in a spot that gave us a decent view of the CEFAS building (The Centre for Environment Fisheries and Aquaculture Science), formerly the Grand Hotel, perched high on Pakefield cliffs



I quite like stooging around here mid-week as many friends work there and I do it to piss them off.

Anchors down, we let out loads of line and both managed to catch a hold on the first go. I was on a 0.75kg disposable anchor, mindful of the sea-pikeys of last week, and Mike was using a 1.5. Tackling up with 2-hook paternosters and 8oz breakaway leads I dived into the bait tub and did some pick n’ mix. Mackerel strip and ragworm, lugworm inside a squid tube, lugworm tipped with mackerel and ragworm tipped with squid and mackerel and cast the lines either side of me about 30 yards out so as to avoid any disturbance from the boat, anchor line etc.

After about half an hour Mike was in!



That’s twice now that he’s drawn first blood, and he proudly showed off his PERSONAL BEST shore crab. Sadly he was too far and it was too overcast for a decent snap but I don’t think it was mantelpiece fodder anyway.



After ¾ of an hour I was up for moving but Mike wanted to stay. Being without a finder there wasn’t much point anyway as I would be able to spot any features so I did stay put and rebaited. Ten minute or so later and I got the classic whiting knocks, the rod tip going up and down rapidly. Hitting it ineffectively (I have decided to try a different design of rod holder) I felt it shaking down below but then nothing. It was off. At least I knew there was a fish down there. Three more bites without hook-ups followed and I figured the baits were too big so I slimmed them down a bit.

The next knock saw me get a whiting up, a little baby, and I held it up on the line and called Mike to show him but it dropped off seconds before he turned his head. Caught but shaken off, I wasn’t too bothered as it was way undersized.

As was the next one.



Although small, it was pretty and a new species for the year. About ¼ of a fish cake I’d estimate, heavy on the potato and with an equal measure of parsley!



So back it went



A couple more small bites that were left until developing – which they failed to do – and then I reeled in a shore crab, which dropped over the side while I was grabbing the camera. Almost out of bait by now and with half an hour of pass left it was time to pack up and head in. Mike had beaten his PB shore crab by now and had boated both of them, though they were returned unrecorded by camera. He’d not noticed any fish bites though so it goes to show that there is a large percentage of luck involved in fishing blind. He came alongside and we stowed rods and things in the hatches before heading off, me dropping down the anchor I’d just began to retrieve to keep us from drifting.

Paddling back was a breeze, and I decided to try out a different way of going in through surf – across the wave diagonally as opposed to straight in, which I usually opt for, or with the wave when I want to have a surf to finish a session. I figured it may help to avoid the nose swinging and tipping me up and so with Mike holding off I tried that method. It was not effective and I nearly got tipped so I finished it off going in straight, hauling the yak onto the sand and watching Mike head in for his first beaching in the surf, again hoping to catching him getting dunked!



He came in at a reasonable pace and kept an eye on what the waves were doing, timing it well



Very well in fact, only get picked up by a wave towards the end



and riding it in to the beach. No mean feat in a Prowler 15 which doesn’t like the surf very much and which was nose heavy from the C-Tug and assorted kit in the bow hatch..



Another trip complete it was time to head back for a coffee and to put stuff away. Unloading, I noticed something was missing again – BLOODY PIKEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!